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	<title>Comments on: How Not to Pitch for Work</title>
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	<link>http://www.jontusmedia.com/how-not-to-pitch-for-work/</link>
	<description>Communications Consultant, Stockholm Sweden</description>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.jontusmedia.com/how-not-to-pitch-for-work/comment-page-1/#comment-2179</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jontusmedia.com/?p=525#comment-2179</guid>
		<description>Thanks so much for sharing the link to Rick Roberge. I&#039;ll check it out. And I&#039;m sure anyone else who is lurking around this post will do likewise. 

As you say, we&#039;ve all got to realise that sales is job #1!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks so much for sharing the link to Rick Roberge. I&#8217;ll check it out. And I&#8217;m sure anyone else who is lurking around this post will do likewise. </p>
<p>As you say, we&#8217;ve all got to realise that sales is job #1!</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Caputa</title>
		<link>http://www.jontusmedia.com/how-not-to-pitch-for-work/comment-page-1/#comment-2177</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Caputa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:18:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jontusmedia.com/?p=525#comment-2177</guid>
		<description>Glad you appreciate my response, Jon. I learned most of what I know about sales from Rick Roberge:  http://www.omghub.com/therainmakermaker/

I wish more people would hire quality sales coaches. Too many freelancers,  are hung up on sales. If I had a dollar for every freelancer or small business owner that said, &quot;I&#039;m not a salesperson. I&#039;m an xyz expert.&quot;, I&#039;d be retired. What any business owner (solo or with employees) should realize is that sales is job #1. 

Just like their craft, it takes constant learning (and coaching) to perfect sale s skills.  And they should realize that getting good at sales is the same as getting good at helping people. Many people equate sales to selfish pursuits. But - when done right - it is all about helping others in the right way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad you appreciate my response, Jon. I learned most of what I know about sales from Rick Roberge:  <a href="http://www.omghub.com/therainmakermaker/" rel="nofollow">http://www.omghub.com/therainmakermaker/</a></p>
<p>I wish more people would hire quality sales coaches. Too many freelancers,  are hung up on sales. If I had a dollar for every freelancer or small business owner that said, &#8220;I&#8217;m not a salesperson. I&#8217;m an xyz expert.&#8221;, I&#8217;d be retired. What any business owner (solo or with employees) should realize is that sales is job #1. </p>
<p>Just like their craft, it takes constant learning (and coaching) to perfect sale s skills.  And they should realize that getting good at sales is the same as getting good at helping people. Many people equate sales to selfish pursuits. But &#8211; when done right &#8211; it is all about helping others in the right way.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.jontusmedia.com/how-not-to-pitch-for-work/comment-page-1/#comment-2175</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jontusmedia.com/?p=525#comment-2175</guid>
		<description>Fabulous response Peter. I really enjoyed your comments. I loved the idea of your sales mentor&#039;s approach. Brilliant. 

As you rightly say, many CEOs like this won&#039;t get what they&#039;re getting anyway even if they turn it over to someone in-house. 

I think the other important issue you raise here is trust. Proposals and outlines don&#039;t guarantee the quality of the work that will be done. They&#039;re more like a road map. 

And on a personal level, I think those of us working freelance, selling our services, could do with a sales coach. Just because you&#039;re a first rate copywriter, translator or SEO expert doesn&#039;t mean you know how to sell your skills. 

Thanks for joining the conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fabulous response Peter. I really enjoyed your comments. I loved the idea of your sales mentor&#8217;s approach. Brilliant. </p>
<p>As you rightly say, many CEOs like this won&#8217;t get what they&#8217;re getting anyway even if they turn it over to someone in-house. </p>
<p>I think the other important issue you raise here is trust. Proposals and outlines don&#8217;t guarantee the quality of the work that will be done. They&#8217;re more like a road map. </p>
<p>And on a personal level, I think those of us working freelance, selling our services, could do with a sales coach. Just because you&#8217;re a first rate copywriter, translator or SEO expert doesn&#8217;t mean you know how to sell your skills. </p>
<p>Thanks for joining the conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Caputa</title>
		<link>http://www.jontusmedia.com/how-not-to-pitch-for-work/comment-page-1/#comment-2171</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Caputa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 01:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jontusmedia.com/?p=525#comment-2171</guid>
		<description>Great post, Jon. 

There are way too many freelancers with piss-poor sales skills out there, giving away the appetizers.  

They&#039;re doing noone any good by doing this, including the CEOs that think they&#039;re getting free advice...  I&#039;d suggest that the CEO in your story (we&#039;ve all encountered them and we&#039;ll all been &quot;had&quot; by atleast one in our careers), is actually not benefiting at all. 

As I&#039;m sure you know, It&#039;s impossible to detail a full &quot;how to be successful online&quot; plan into a one time document.  Successful online marketers continuously analyze what&#039;s working, make conclusions from data, adopt new approaches from reading and testing, measuring everything and repeating what is working. It&#039;s a rare CEO or in-house marketer that can do that amongst all of their other responsibilities. 

I recently had a guy email me after a full year had gone by since our last conversation. A year ago, I had given him some free advice even though he told me he couldn&#039;t afford my service. (I try to help the people that are atleast willing to tell me they can&#039;t afford to spend $.) He took the advice and tried to implement it, but made two fatal mistakes (duplicate content, no lead conversion process) and has wasted a lot of time and some money (on ppc). I asked him in our first call this week, &quot;Why did you call me after a year?&quot; He said, &quot;You&#039;re the only one that seemed to know what you&#039;re talking about.&quot;. I said thank you and then asked him what he&#039;s been doing. I pointed out the mistakes he had made and asked him if he wanted to continue making mistakes or if he wanted a proven process that he could follow? He opted to spend some money this time and do it the right way. 

As sales professionals (or freelancers who have to sell),  I believe it&#039;s our responsibility to do the right thing for the prospect or customer. Proposals are usually a waste of time. Most CEOs will buy something if they are confident that you can help them and that it is a worthwhile investment. If you can&#039;t first do that in a conversation and agree on scope of work, budget, timeline, who needs to do what, etc, than guessing about it on paper is a waste of everyone&#039;s time.  The details about &quot;what you&#039;re going to do&quot; or &quot;how you&#039;re going to do it&quot; should be less important to them if they trust you can help them. So, your proposal should be less about this and more about the time, money and goals issues. 

Often times, getting to this point involves asking difficult questions about their budget, business problems, personal goals, as well as setting expectations that what you do requires years of learning and practice, as well as months of experimentation.  And that it can&#039;t be boiled into a document for a novice to understand. If he still wants a document without telling you when he wants to buy, why it&#039;s important to him, how much  he wants to spend, how he wants to benefit, then buy him &quot;Internet Marketing for Dummies&quot; and tell him &quot;good luck&quot;.  

My sales coach used to tell me to book a meeting with anyone who asks for a proposal. Then, ask them what they want in the proposal. Take notes while they talk, then have them sign it at the end of the meeting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, Jon. </p>
<p>There are way too many freelancers with piss-poor sales skills out there, giving away the appetizers.  </p>
<p>They&#8217;re doing noone any good by doing this, including the CEOs that think they&#8217;re getting free advice&#8230;  I&#8217;d suggest that the CEO in your story (we&#8217;ve all encountered them and we&#8217;ll all been &#8220;had&#8221; by atleast one in our careers), is actually not benefiting at all. </p>
<p>As I&#8217;m sure you know, It&#8217;s impossible to detail a full &#8220;how to be successful online&#8221; plan into a one time document.  Successful online marketers continuously analyze what&#8217;s working, make conclusions from data, adopt new approaches from reading and testing, measuring everything and repeating what is working. It&#8217;s a rare CEO or in-house marketer that can do that amongst all of their other responsibilities. </p>
<p>I recently had a guy email me after a full year had gone by since our last conversation. A year ago, I had given him some free advice even though he told me he couldn&#8217;t afford my service. (I try to help the people that are atleast willing to tell me they can&#8217;t afford to spend $.) He took the advice and tried to implement it, but made two fatal mistakes (duplicate content, no lead conversion process) and has wasted a lot of time and some money (on ppc). I asked him in our first call this week, &#8220;Why did you call me after a year?&#8221; He said, &#8220;You&#8217;re the only one that seemed to know what you&#8217;re talking about.&#8221;. I said thank you and then asked him what he&#8217;s been doing. I pointed out the mistakes he had made and asked him if he wanted to continue making mistakes or if he wanted a proven process that he could follow? He opted to spend some money this time and do it the right way. </p>
<p>As sales professionals (or freelancers who have to sell),  I believe it&#8217;s our responsibility to do the right thing for the prospect or customer. Proposals are usually a waste of time. Most CEOs will buy something if they are confident that you can help them and that it is a worthwhile investment. If you can&#8217;t first do that in a conversation and agree on scope of work, budget, timeline, who needs to do what, etc, than guessing about it on paper is a waste of everyone&#8217;s time.  The details about &#8220;what you&#8217;re going to do&#8221; or &#8220;how you&#8217;re going to do it&#8221; should be less important to them if they trust you can help them. So, your proposal should be less about this and more about the time, money and goals issues. </p>
<p>Often times, getting to this point involves asking difficult questions about their budget, business problems, personal goals, as well as setting expectations that what you do requires years of learning and practice, as well as months of experimentation.  And that it can&#8217;t be boiled into a document for a novice to understand. If he still wants a document without telling you when he wants to buy, why it&#8217;s important to him, how much  he wants to spend, how he wants to benefit, then buy him &#8220;Internet Marketing for Dummies&#8221; and tell him &#8220;good luck&#8221;.  </p>
<p>My sales coach used to tell me to book a meeting with anyone who asks for a proposal. Then, ask them what they want in the proposal. Take notes while they talk, then have them sign it at the end of the meeting.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.jontusmedia.com/how-not-to-pitch-for-work/comment-page-1/#comment-2162</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jontusmedia.com/?p=525#comment-2162</guid>
		<description>@kalle
It&#039;s a tough one, isn&#039;t it. Especially as here in Sweden a lot of companies don&#039;t like paying any money up front. Working for the state is even harder as an independent freelancer because they take 2 months to pay out. 

I think the main thing is to try to think through potential scenarios and have strategies in place that you can turn to to ensure you don&#039;t get taken for a ride.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@kalle<br />
It&#8217;s a tough one, isn&#8217;t it. Especially as here in Sweden a lot of companies don&#8217;t like paying any money up front. Working for the state is even harder as an independent freelancer because they take 2 months to pay out. </p>
<p>I think the main thing is to try to think through potential scenarios and have strategies in place that you can turn to to ensure you don&#8217;t get taken for a ride.</p>
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		<title>By: Kalle</title>
		<link>http://www.jontusmedia.com/how-not-to-pitch-for-work/comment-page-1/#comment-2160</link>
		<dc:creator>Kalle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 10:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jontusmedia.com/?p=525#comment-2160</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s no secret you excel in this field, and I can vote for this, having had the privileged of being one of your students! Funny thing is that I, two years ago, was in a very similar situation. Close to the end I felt that something was rotten so I blew of the deal by asking for payment for my future services, in a manner very similar to the one you described. The deal ended in them not paying me squat, and in me already finished a partial web page that included a logo.
Later on I got them to take it of the web, threatening to sue as I had never, verbally or in writing, promised them the page, thus making it mine. 
Still a lo of hard work for nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s no secret you excel in this field, and I can vote for this, having had the privileged of being one of your students! Funny thing is that I, two years ago, was in a very similar situation. Close to the end I felt that something was rotten so I blew of the deal by asking for payment for my future services, in a manner very similar to the one you described. The deal ended in them not paying me squat, and in me already finished a partial web page that included a logo.<br />
Later on I got them to take it of the web, threatening to sue as I had never, verbally or in writing, promised them the page, thus making it mine.<br />
Still a lo of hard work for nothing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://www.jontusmedia.com/how-not-to-pitch-for-work/comment-page-1/#comment-2158</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jontusmedia.com/?p=525#comment-2158</guid>
		<description>@everyone
Thanks for the positive feedback. It&#039;s funny because I was mulling over whether to post this here for over two weeks. Your positive comments are very much appreciated.  It is SO difficult to establish yourself as a freelance consultant – particularly when businesses are looking to save money. I got the inspiration for this from an old diary entry from last year when I was furious at myself for falling into this trap. Thankfully I&#039;m getting better but there&#039;s always more to learn.

@Angela
I like the sound of charging for &quot;an action plan&quot;. Great phrase and a brilliant strategy. That&#039;s exactly the sort of thing I would have needed to konw about when I was first starting out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@everyone<br />
Thanks for the positive feedback. It&#8217;s funny because I was mulling over whether to post this here for over two weeks. Your positive comments are very much appreciated.  It is SO difficult to establish yourself as a freelance consultant – particularly when businesses are looking to save money. I got the inspiration for this from an old diary entry from last year when I was furious at myself for falling into this trap. Thankfully I&#8217;m getting better but there&#8217;s always more to learn.</p>
<p>@Angela<br />
I like the sound of charging for &#8220;an action plan&#8221;. Great phrase and a brilliant strategy. That&#8217;s exactly the sort of thing I would have needed to konw about when I was first starting out.</p>
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		<title>By: Angela</title>
		<link>http://www.jontusmedia.com/how-not-to-pitch-for-work/comment-page-1/#comment-2157</link>
		<dc:creator>Angela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 06:57:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jontusmedia.com/?p=525#comment-2157</guid>
		<description>Great post Jon.   I was very guilty of this but now charge a consultation fee.   This initial consultation includes an action plan.  If they choose to have me complete the work,  they know exactly what they are paying for and I have already given myself a roadmap.   If they choose to do it in house, at least I have been paid for my time and expertise.  I find most clients hire me to carry out the work.

I started this plan because of another risk factor for freelancers:  the time-sucking client who will spend hours of (unbilled) time on the phone, IM or email asking countless questions about what I could be doing for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post Jon.   I was very guilty of this but now charge a consultation fee.   This initial consultation includes an action plan.  If they choose to have me complete the work,  they know exactly what they are paying for and I have already given myself a roadmap.   If they choose to do it in house, at least I have been paid for my time and expertise.  I find most clients hire me to carry out the work.</p>
<p>I started this plan because of another risk factor for freelancers:  the time-sucking client who will spend hours of (unbilled) time on the phone, IM or email asking countless questions about what I could be doing for them.</p>
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		<title>By: Marcie Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.jontusmedia.com/how-not-to-pitch-for-work/comment-page-1/#comment-2154</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcie Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jontusmedia.com/?p=525#comment-2154</guid>
		<description>Thank you for telling it like it is.  I will definitely be more conscious of the things I say and do during these initial meetings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for telling it like it is.  I will definitely be more conscious of the things I say and do during these initial meetings.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirsten Wright</title>
		<link>http://www.jontusmedia.com/how-not-to-pitch-for-work/comment-page-1/#comment-2152</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirsten Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jontusmedia.com/?p=525#comment-2152</guid>
		<description>wow. just wow. Jon, you have done a phenomenal job with this post. I definitely had the &#039;been there, done that&#039; feeling. Wish it was years behind me, but unfortunately, this happened just a couple weeks ago for me. I can not tell you how much I wish I had read this a month ago. But at least now, I know better. And this post reassures me that I&#039;m not the only one who has fallen into the trap...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wow. just wow. Jon, you have done a phenomenal job with this post. I definitely had the &#8216;been there, done that&#8217; feeling. Wish it was years behind me, but unfortunately, this happened just a couple weeks ago for me. I can not tell you how much I wish I had read this a month ago. But at least now, I know better. And this post reassures me that I&#8217;m not the only one who has fallen into the trap&#8230;</p>
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